CRUCIFIXION OR CRUCI-FICTION

 
 
CRUCIFIXION OR CRUCI-FICTION ?
 
 
Chain below is a debate that I had with some very knowledgeable friends on Jesus (aka Isa (ale-salaam)). I have known Robin since my Bradford University days for over 20 years now and he is a devout Catholic.
 
From: Shehzad Naroo 
 
Dear Robin
Just to further Chris’s statement there are three aspects

1. The Quran implicitly tells us that Allah (swt) made it ‘appear’ that Christ (as) was killed i.e. so as not to disappoint the enemies of Jesus (as) but mainly to grant the wish of Christ (as) which was to return to earth as a follower of the Final Prophet (saw). The New Testament states clearly that Jesus (as) asked the Father (swt) ‘to remove this cup (i.e. burden)’ and it follows in the next verse that ‘God (swt) heard his prayer’. If God (swt) is all seeing and all knowing then why state that ‘God (swt) heard his prayer’ in this case? Because the prayer was answered. As Muslim we do not concern ourselves with whom was crucified or how God (swt) made it appear tat someone was killed in place of Christ (as). The fact that Christ (as) was not killed allows for his return visit to his disciples before his ascension. By trying to suggest it was Simon or a Roman or even Judas does not matter. As a Muslim we will ask ourselves this question – if we were given the knowledge of who was killed in place of Jesus (as) will it change our belief. Answer of course not we belive the Quran which simply informs us that Allah (swt) made it ‘appear’ that Christ (as) was killed

2. There is a saying in Islam that the Jews worship the Law and the Christians worship the messenger Law but Muslim worship the Law Maker. Jews are known for their particular unnecessary attention and making a fuss of minor insignificant things. For example the covenant between Allah (swt) and his Prophet Ibrahim (as) was that male children would be circumcised. Only after that was Ibrahim (as) granted children. In a way Alah (swt) ensured that the lineage was purified thereafter. Muslims will allow a GP or an Imam (priest with correct training) or even a Jewish Rabbi to perform the circumcision. Jews make a big fuss of the event and it has to done in a ritualistic way etc. Most Christians forgot about circumcision since Paul declared it was not necessary even though all the disciples and Jesus (as) had it. Paul was trying to make the message of Christ (as) which was intended for a particular people open to gentiles especially Romans and Greeks. Also to make the religion more palatable to Romans and Greeks the trinity was invented. This is something which is well known in pagan cultures where a king/leader/priest think he is divine but born of an earthly mother and declaring his own father not to be his father but rather to declare his father as the supreme god (Zeus, Jupiter, Baal etc). The virgin birth of Jesus (as) added mystery to Jesus (as) that was not understood but the trinity was a nice way of making it acceptable to non-believers.

3. Furthermore for Allah (swt) to become Jesus (as) and visit earth is completely unacceptable since it is not befitting for the creation to contain the creator. By suggesting the creation is able to hold the creator is incorrect and suggests limits to God (swt). In the same way that no one can see God because it is not befitting that your visual system can contain even an image of God (swt) – when Moses (as) asked to see God (swt), God (swt) sent his image to a mountainside causing it to inflame. When God (swt) spoke to Prophets He did so via the Arch Angel Gabriel (as) with few exceptions (in which cases a few time a few Prophets were given the ability to dialogue directly with Allah swt – but we are not told how this was done and again it doesn’t matter as faith doesn’t hinge at that point). Christians, and Jews to a lesser extent, try and make God (swt) into something they can comprehend and try and give Him man-like qualities – Genesis ludicrously suggests that God (swt) needed a rest (!!!!) after 6 days of universe building (clearly this is an attempt by Jewish priests to tell people to keep the Sabbath holy). whereas Muslims are happy knowing they will never understand the complexities of God (swt) but nonetheless try and get close to Him by following the examples of the Prophets (as) and the Prophet of this era is Prophet Muhammed (saw).

Robin (I hope you don’t take this personally but) it really saddens me when someone of black descent – whose African forefathers were most likely Muslims but had the Islam beat out of them by European slave masters and then they were indoctrinated with Christianity (to supposedly civilise them!!!) and yet were still treated as lesser citizens (even in church!!) – buries his head in the sand that is Christianity. You are a clever man, you have reasoning, take your head out of the sand (as Chris said – don’t view things through Christian glasses) and apply logic that will lead you to the truth (inshallah).

Best wishes
Shehzad.

At 01:21 28/02/2007 -0500, Chris Aceto wrote:

Well there in lies the summation of the verse in the koran "you have your
way and I have mine"

Regarding the limitations of God;  In the old testtement, you could easily
present the evidence that all readers of the book to whom it was presented
(Jews) never thought  of God this way. They thought God was limitless, but
what he (God) himself reveled about himself never indicated that he is
anything other then something OTHER then a human being. In other words, God
claimed to be majestic, the creator etc ( use any of the 99 names of allah
here)  The christian understanding of CHrist being God only is found in
their book where the reader must "allude" to that. It is never emphatically
pointed out. In other words, Christ never says I am allah, your creator and
the creator is me. It is an obligation of the messengers of God in  all of
the monotheistic traditions to clearly spell out to the always doubting
public WHO EXACTLY they are and what exactly is their role. Therefore, it
would be incumbant on CHrist to make the explicit claim that he is the
creator of the worlds and that eternal life is only atainable with his blood
sacrifice.  That stuff is not explicit in any way in their scriptures.
However, one could make an argument for that if he ASSUMES that already
going into the reading. If, however, he is not under that sassumption going
in, then he would be very hard pressed to draw that conclusion

—– Original Message —–
From: "Khan, Khalid"
To: "Chris Aceto"
Cc: "Shehzad A. Naroo"
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:14 PM
Subject: FW: Interesting Isa Ale-Islam (Jesus Christ)

f.y.i

—–Original Message—–
From: RobinReid

Sent: 28 February 2007 00:14
To: Khan, Khalid
Subject: Re: Interesting Isa Ale-Islam (Jesus Christ)

I guess, in summary, what Chris is saying below is that one believes what
one believes, which is fair enough. I didn’t understand the God and man bit
though. True, man is not God but to suggest that God cannot become man
implies limitation of an infinite being. In the Old Testament, angels were
forever becoming incarnate (e.g. the three messengers to Abraham) so I have
no problem in believing that God himself also chose to become a man like us
in all ways but sin. And he would have suffered the same temptations, the
same stresses and strains of daily life as we all do today… But, I suppose
to believe that would automatically make you a Christian.

Is this the chap I met when I visited you in Maine? We played pool together
(and had another religious debate – something about Adam and Eve but can’t
remember exactly what).

Cheers.

    Robin

—– Original Message —–
From: "Khan, Khalid"
To: RobinReid
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 11:34 PM
Subject: FW: Interesting Isa Ale-Islam (Jesus Christ)

Hi Robin,

I sent you’re query to a good friend of mine from Maine, Chris Aceto, who
reverted to Islam many years ago – here are his thoughts.  (Btw.. Do a
google search on his name and you’ll see that he’s a famous Body Builder
himself and trainer)

Regards,

Khalid

—–Original Message—–
From: Chris Aceto

Sent: 27 February 2007 20:36
To: Khan, Khalid
Subject: Re: Interesting

salamu aalikum

My understanding of Isalm’s view of Christ was that he was neither killed
nor crucified. That is, really, enough. Your friend is looking at what islam
says thru christian glasses which, in this case, his point is well taken. i
think to understand and appreciate the islamic view, you have to look at it
thru islamic glasses. When you put islamic glasses on, you already know that
a man is not God and  God is not a man. With that, it becomes clearer that
the idea of the crucifiction may not be accurate as the understanding of
what god is and what god is not is also inaccurate…

chris


—– Original Message —-
From: "Khan, Khalid"

To: "Chris Aceto"
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 3:22 PM
Subject: FW: Interesting

What are your thoughts on this discussion please Chris ?? I have known Robin
from my University days for over 20 years now and he is a devout Catholic –
any advice would be much appreciated.

Wasalaam,

Khalid

—–Original Message—–
From: RobinReid

Sent: 27 February 2007 19:24
To: Khan, Khalid
Subject: Re: Interesting

Funnily enough, I was reading about the various (Muslim) beliefs about Jesus
(Isa) over the weekend after my annual viewing of The Passion of The Christ.
Some say that Simon of Cyrene was accidentally crucified by the Romans
instead of Jesus. Supposedly, there is a doctrine that God made someone look
like Jesus, either to punish an enemy or by selecting a volunteer. There is
another doctrine that Christ was in fact crucified but passed out and was
taken down before he actually died. Both seem extraordinarily fallacious to
me. In the first, what I don’t understand is how thick the Romans would have
to be to select someone from the crowd and mistake him for a condemned man
who had already been beaten almost to death. Simon was with his family and
would have been clean; Jesus had been flogged countless times, crowned with
thorns, punched and generally battered. I don’t think this doctrine holds
water. The other doctrine that he was crucified but didn’t die on the cross
is also refuted by the fact that he stabbed with a lance precisely to make
sure he was dead before being allowed to be taken down. And blood and then
water flowed from his side.

I couldn’t access that link, btw.

    Robin

—– Original Message —–
From: "Khan, Khalid"
To: robinreid
Cc: "Sherwood, Garry N"
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 11:37 AM
Subject: FW: Interesting

Hmmm … holds true to Islamic teachings as expected, since Jesus was
never crucified, but will return to fight the anti-christ.

According to the beliefs of the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jamaa’ah (i.e.
"Orthodox" Sunnis), Jesus, peace be upon him, was raised to heaven
alive, and his return to earth will be one of the signs that the Day of
Judgment is approaching. These beliefs are not based on whims or
guesswork, but are narrated to us through authentic hadeeths
(sayings/traditions) of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.
"He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture
and hath appointed me a Prophet, And hath made me blessed wheresoever I
may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I
remain alive, And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and
hath not made me arrogant, unblest. Peace on me the day I was born, and
the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son
of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they
doubt." (The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, translated by M. M.
Pickthall, Surah 19 – Maryam, Verses 30-34)

______________________________________________
From: Sherwood, Garry N
Sent: 27 February 2007 11:18
To: Khan, Khalid
Subject: Interesting

http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/picture_gallery/0,,70141-1253410,00.html

Titanic director James Cameron has caused controversy by claiming this is Jesus’ burial box – and that Christ was never resurrected.  It is one of 10 ossuaries discovered in a Jerusalem cave in 1980 which may have held the bones of Jesus, his wife Mary Magdalene, and possibly a son.

 

 

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